[19:36:21] Rogue Okay, hello all :)
[19:36:23] EntilZha Ok, is this thing on ?
[19:36:26] DaveyD yes
[19:36:28] EntilZha Hello All!
[19:36:37] Rogue *clears throat*
[19:36:43] DaveyD hi EntilZha and Rogue
[19:37:12] Rogue Hello everybody... first of all, I would like to say a few things that would otherwise be asked at least 100 times :)
[19:37:33] Rogue I've got some good news and some not-so-good news... I start with the not-so-good one.
[19:38:01] Rogue As you have probably already guessed, there will be no OS 4 release this year. There are reasons for that which I would like to explain
[19:38:35] Rogue The main reason is the unavailability of hardware. As you all know, AmigaOne's are not available right now, so we are not in a position to offer an OS 4 with a matching hardware.
[19:39:11] Rogue We DO think that once we release AmigaOS4.0, there will be a general interest in the news, in media, etc. We will get a lot of interest from people outside the amiga market, and they will ask where they can buy it.
[19:39:44] Rogue If we tell them they cannot buy it right now and need to wait until the hardware is available, then this will take away a lot of momentum that the release will generate.
[19:40:00] Rogue Hence we decided to postpone the release until such time as a hardware platform IS available.
[19:40:08] Rogue *coughs* so much for the bad news.
[19:40:25] Rogue Now the good news. First of all, since we don't have OS 4 out now as planned, there will be...
[19:40:29] Rogue Update #4
[19:40:54] Rogue Update #4 will come out early january, and will be again a quite comprehensive update. It will include, among other things...
[19:41:04] Rogue -> Petunia (the JIT)
[19:41:11] Rogue -> Warp3D including the R200 driver
[19:41:35] Rogue -> the latest Intuition, which has seen quite some overhaul (especially in ReAction)
[19:41:57] Rogue ... and, well, everything else is included too. It's going to be an installable ISO again
[19:42:14] Rogue It will be more or less what the beta testers have now
[19:42:34] Rogue Secondly, one thing that was recently added to OS 4 is SCSI support.
[19:43:07] Rogue Stephane Guillard has written a driver for LSI/Symbios based cards (53c8xx based).
[19:43:44] Rogue Finally, you will wonder when new hardware is going to be available.
[19:44:31] Rogue I'm afraid I cannot answer that question, BUT we are working with several hardware companies (Troika is one of them but not the only one) that want to provide hardware ofr AmigaOS4.0
[19:45:02] Rogue These companies will come forward as soon as they are ready for that. Projects will cover both the low-end and high-end market.
[19:45:20] Rogue Alright, that's it from me. I'd say on to the questions.
[19:45:33] Coder Ok hold on for the first one.
[19:46:21] Coder Will there be any kind of software / drivers updating service (notice or automatic via internet) in the final os4.0..
[19:47:07] Mikey_C-A1 Before we go any further, please, those of you who have joined and wish to ask a question, join #amigaworld2. To do this do /join #amigaworld2 at your prompt
[19:47:20] Rogue As you may have heard, there already is some sort of updater program called AmiUpdate. We don't know yet if this will make it public or not, but it is certainly an option...
[19:47:39] Rogue Basically we will consider it but it depends on the infrastructure.
[19:47:58] Eric_S Will update #4 include SNAP?
[19:47:58] Rogue next please :)
[19:48:09] Rogue No, SNAP will not be included
[19:48:21] Rogue next
[19:48:28] Mikey_C-A1  What will the final version contain that's missing for update 4
[19:48:54] EntilZha Not much. Basically, it's very near to what would have been the final release.
[19:49:19] EntilZha There are some bits and pieces that we will only release in the final version...
[19:49:42] EntilZha This gives us the opportunity to test them some more internally...
[19:49:49] _Steve_
[VidarL]: Given the popularity of "safe" languages, do you have any plans to release a virtual machine based programming language like Java or .Net, with official Reaction bindings?
[19:50:21] EntilZha There are currently no plans from our side.
[19:50:35] Rogue We are planning things like Python
[19:50:46] Rogue as a replacement for AREXX. But nothing yet in terms of Java
[19:50:52] EntilZha NEXT
[19:51:05] L8-X Codesmith:when are we going to see an updated SDK?
[19:51:06] Rigo QUESTION: When can we expect an updated SDK?
[19:51:36] EntilZha It wil probably l be release shortly after update #4
[19:51:48] EntilZha next
[19:52:16] Alchemy Invizix: http://www.perl.com/doc/manual/html/Porting/README.amiga.html
[19:52:31] L8-X fusion:Will Y have to you it a rom 4.0 to receive AmigaOS4 or will be us obliged of reflasher the CyberstormPPC chart?
[19:53:03] Rogue There will be no OS4 ROM and there will be no reflashing for CyberstormPPC cards.
[19:53:10] Rogue next
[19:53:15] _Steve_
[^eliot]: How good does memory protection, virtual memory and resource tracking work in current OS4? Which limitations are there?
[19:54:12] EntilZha Memory protection in the sense that programs run completely isolated does not work on current AmigaOS... it's technically not possible since all existing programs rely on shared memory
[19:54:43] Coder just wanted to add a question (if possible) "what are current relationships between eyetech an hyperion"
[19:54:56] EntilZha The only thing we currently do is protect certain parts from access by user programs...
[19:55:52] EntilZha Resource tracking is implemented basically, but it is not yet used by everyone, so basically, it's disabled by default... there are too many problems still (resources being freed by other tasks than the original allocator...)
[19:56:30] Rogue The relationship between Hyperion and Eyetech is as always - we're doing the software, Eyetech is doing the hardware.
[19:56:41] Rogue I don't think there is more to say on that.
[19:56:43] Rogue next
[19:56:49] Eric_S QUESTION: Mesa looks really interesting. How much integration into AmigaOS are you expecting to do? Will there be a mesa.library for example?
[19:56:49] L8-X : Are Hyperion in regular contact with Amiga.Inc?
[19:57:01] Rogue *coughs* :)
[19:57:04] Rogue Alright, about Mesa...
[19:57:51] Rogue We are working on a generic OpenGL framework that will basically allow a program to use OpenGL much in the same way as AGL, glX or WGL - you create a context and start using OpenGL commands.
[19:58:15] Rogue This will not be tied to Mesa but to a concept of an installable driver that can override all or part of the standard OpenGL pipeline.
[19:58:35] Rogue This way a vendor-specific OpenGL can be used as well as Mesa or even MiniGL.
[19:58:54] Rogue About our contact with Amiga:
[19:59:26] Rogue Yes, we are in contact with Amiga. I don't know specifics, since this is a management job, so I can't say more about it.
[19:59:31] Rogue Next
[19:59:33] Outcast QUESTION: Will the Grim Reaper be able to catch crashes that occur within graphics/intuition.library caused by incorrect
[19:59:33] Outcast pointers, or will it lock upp the system in OS4 final as well? This problem is very annoying during development and testing
[20:00:27] EntilZha Illegal access in critical parts of the system will always lead to such "hard" crashes. This is a problem of the AmigaOS design in general, and we basically inherit that.
[20:01:06] EntilZha There's no real way for the GrimReaper to catch these... these things will be addressed later
[20:01:09] EntilZha next
[20:01:24] Coder Some days ago in the forums it was said that the RKM's would be renewed and printed again. Could you share some more info on that?
[20:02:14] EntilZha We intent to bring the RKM's up to current specs.
[20:02:52] EntilZha There might be a print-on-demand printing (there are companies that offer such a service), although nothing is yet written in stone... it's planned, at any case
[20:03:01] EntilZha next
[20:03:05] Eric_S QUESTION: will full dvi support for dvi-able graphic cards/monitors make it into update#4 or the final one?
[20:03:17] L8-X is amigainput going to be included in update 4?
[20:03:36] Rogue Update #4 : no, most likely not. OS4 final: Yes.
[20:03:55] EntilZha That's DVi support Rogue's talking about
[20:04:35] Rogue AmigaInput: yes that is going to be included in update #4, most likely including the USB HID driver... I have played Descent Freespace wth my Saitek X52 FCS and it rocks :)
[20:04:38] Rogue next
[20:04:40] Outcast QUESTION: Can you comment on any possible CPU upgrades that may or may not be available for the A1 ?
[20:04:41] Outcast
[20:04:48] EntilZha No
[20:04:52] Outcast :)
[20:04:57] EntilZha Sorry, we are no hardware company
[20:05:00] EntilZha next
[20:05:28] _Steve_
[dEF_bASE]: Question: Hardware support (specifically, driver development for anything other than the most popular hardware) is a serious issue for Linux. How do you intend to address driver development and hardware support to avoid (or reduce) the issues that Linux has?
[20:06:05] Rogue We're in the same boat. Hardware support WILL be an issue, more so since many hardware companies will not part with their specs.
[20:06:22] Rogue We can borrow from Linux or write our own drivers, or support thrid party drivers.
[20:06:49] Rogue For OS 4 on embedded devices, things will look different since on embedded hardware the drivers will be custom-written for the system in question.
[20:07:14] Rogue But yeah, that is going to be an issue... you will not be able ATM to plug in, say, a Volari graphics card and expect it to work.
[20:07:17] Rogue :(
[20:07:19] Rogue next
[20:07:25] Coder Will there be socks support in roadshow?
[20:08:12] EntilZha Uhm, good question... Frankly, I don't know... if Olaf is here, can somebody voice him :S
[20:09:18] Rogue Something I forgot to mention about Update #4:
[20:09:27] Rogue It will have 64 bit DOS support
[20:09:49] Mikey_C-A1 Rogue can you elaborate on that?
[20:09:56] Rogue Sure..
[20:10:34] Rogue There are new functions that accept 64 bit file offsets and sizes. There are also new DOS package types that will allow you to use files that are larger than 2 GB.
[20:10:43] Rogue currently everything is 32 bit, and signed, too.
[20:10:48] Outcast YES
[20:10:51] Rogue so that means 2GB is mostly the limit.
[20:10:55] Outcast you beauty
[20:11:10] Rogue *coughs*
[20:11:30] Mikey_C-A1 lol
[20:11:32] Rogue Erm, seems Olaf isn't here... Next I'd say
[20:11:37] Mikey_C-A1 No he isn't
[20:11:38] DaveyD question: will os4 support tvout?
[20:11:40] Mikey_C-A1 I have been told
[20:11:53] Rogue Update 4 won't.
[20:12:17] Rogue For the final version, I think this is planned (for cards that support it like Radeon), so it would be yes.
[20:12:20] Rogue next
[20:12:26] Eric_S Question: Using AmigaOS4 partitioned harddrives connected via USB is not working well to say the least in pre3, will this work in Update4?
[20:13:19] EntilZha There was a bug in CrossDos that was causing trouble. This is fixed, and the fix will make it into update 4
[20:13:47] EntilZha Other than that, I can't say, because I don't know what the problem is that you're having...
[20:13:50] EntilZha next
[20:13:51] Outcast MiMe_OS4> QUESTION: will the radeon drivers be updated for #4 (overlay for example)?
[20:13:53] L8-X How advanced have the video drivers become so far and in final OS4 whats the latest Radeon card we can use to attain both 2d and 3d?
[20:14:30] EntilZha Overlay is still being worked on, but it's not in update 4, sorry
[20:15:09] EntilZha All Radeons from R100 up to R2xx and RV2xx are supported by 3d drivers
[20:15:17] EntilZha All others only 2d at the moment.
[20:15:21] EntilZha next
[20:16:02] _Steve_
[ssolie]: QUESTION: Mesa looks really interesting. How much integration into AmigaOS are you expecting to do? Will there be a mesa.library for example?
[20:16:16] EntilZha *coughs* See above
[20:16:23] EntilZha Already been answered
[20:16:26] * Rogue points upwards
[20:16:31] EntilZha Uhm... next ?
[20:17:04] Coder Are you spending more time on the OS4 version for the "classic" Amiga now that you are waiting with the final release for new hardware?
[20:17:37] EntilZha Not really. Except for the real low-level stuff, both versions are basically the same...
[20:18:21] EntilZha What we currently do is testing and bugfixing... even final releases contain bugs, so here's our chance to reduce the number of bugs that will be in the final version (and replace them by new bugs :S )
[20:18:49] EntilZha next
[20:18:59] Eric_S QUESTION: will there be public & free SDK with cross-compilers?
[20:19:27] EntilZha Yes, there will be. Unfortunately, this has been on backburner for far too long, and we apologize for that.
[20:19:44] EntilZha next
[20:19:50] L8-X Q:Does #4 need UBOOT update?
[20:19:54] EntilZha No
[20:19:59] EntilZha next :)
[20:20:00] Outcast mschulz_AROS> question: would you mind allowing AROS to be source-compatible with OS4?
[20:20:23] Rogue Well, my personal opinion: No.
[20:20:24] Rogue BUT
[20:20:49] Rogue Since I am certainly not a lawyer, I cannot and will not comment on legal issues... I don't mind, but the company might :)
[20:21:05] Rogue There are commercial interests to be taken into account.
[20:21:32] EntilZha Basically, this is a question for the management, and not for us... we only work here :)
[20:21:39] Rogue Yup :)
[20:21:42] EntilZha Personally, I wouldn't mind either.
[20:21:50] Rogue next
[20:21:58] _Steve_
[%Jurassic_OS4]: QUESTION: Who will be responsible for the OS4 marketing. We all know how poor C= marketing was after the 64 was released with there be a hi profile scheme ?
[20:22:20] Rogue Erm, good question.
[20:22:32] Rogue I am a developer, it certainly isn't going to be me :)
[20:22:46] Rogue Other than that, well the website is more or less a beginning of our marketing...
[20:23:00] Rogue So I cannot really answer that.
[20:23:03] Rogue next
[20:23:22] Coder question: can finally use joystick/jopad with update 4?
[20:23:30] Rogue Yes.
[20:23:44] Rogue AmigaInput is going to be included
[20:24:06] Rogue There is a driver for USB HID devices which is capable of driving a number of USB joysticks.
[20:24:26] Rogue Not all are supported, we are working on a compatibility list.
[20:24:53] Rogue But quite a number of devices already work... Like I said above, my Saitek FCS works quite well..
[20:25:11] EntilZha We played Freespace with this: http://www.saitek.de/prod/x52.htm
[20:25:19] Rogue next :)
[20:25:23] Eric_S PA-Semi, xenon, cell, ... everything is multicore, nowadays. Any plans to add support?
[20:25:38] Rogue That is a definitive YES!
[20:25:47] Rogue We'Re already lookng into this.
[20:26:06] Rogue Multicore CPU's are going to be commonplace in a few years time, we cannot afford to miss that.
[20:26:13] Rogue Especially with CELL
[20:26:48] EntilZha There are currently "legacy issues" with multicore support, so this is going to be post OS4.0 (4.x)
[20:27:10] Rogue This is mostly about Forbid lockign which chokes performance if used too often.
[20:27:39] Rogue We're working on getting this out of the system, and we're working on solutions for dual/multicore CPU support and special CPU support like CELL
[20:27:43] Rogue next
[20:27:51] Outcast Question: Is raytracer Real 4D still an issue for AOs4?
[20:27:57] Rogue Yes
[20:28:12] Rogue Still being worked on, though it is going slowly...
[20:28:21] Rogue We've moved it to a third party though.
[20:28:25] Rogue next
[20:28:28] _Steve_
[GuruMeditation]: QUESTION: Commodore was quite excellent when it came to documentation. Will you, or anyone else print any documentation for OS4, or will it be digital only?
[20:28:42] Rogue Good question.
[20:29:07] Rogue Digital documentation is going to be the major source of information, but we're looking into things like a printed manual.
[20:29:32] Rogue There most likely *will* be a printed manual for the final release.
[20:29:51] EntilZha And a "big box"
[20:30:03] Rogue next
[20:30:26] Coder Orgin: Do you plan, at some point, to include a proper GUI based tool for task/process management? Such as listing all running processes, sending signals, changing priorities, killing individual tasks etc.
[20:31:45] EntilZha The whole scheduler/task system will be reworked completely in post 4.0. As such, these possibilities are probably going to be addressed late, including such a tool.
[20:32:12] Rogue There has been lots of work recently within exec and DOS to make graceful exit of crashed task more viable
[20:32:33] Rogue Resource tracking *is* functional, it just needs to be extended to things like graphics and intuition.
[20:32:51] Rogue Whether this will work out for 4.0 or be pused back for 4.1 is not yet decided... I'd bet on 4.1
[20:32:57] Rogue next
[20:33:01] Eric_S Question: Are there any plans for a speech program in OS4 as there was in the original Amiga?
[20:33:13] EntilZha Short answer: No
[20:34:10] EntilZha Long answer: There's been a candidate for a speech replacement for OS4, but it has not yet been pirsued. It's basically a "minor issue", and there is freely available software that can do the same.
[20:34:26] EntilZha next
[20:34:29] L8-X Any chance of some new games while we wait for OS4? I have cash to spend...
[20:35:05] Rogue We're currently working on some stuff but I cannot disclose what it is, nor can I say when it will be available.
[20:35:17] EntilZha Basically, we are working full time on OS4
[20:35:18] Rogue things go slow... we've got an OS to finish too :)
[20:36:10] Rogue next
[20:36:11] Outcast Chris_Y> QUESTION: What features are planned for post-OS4.0?
[20:36:27] EntilZha Some of the features:
[20:36:39] EntilZha - Multi-core/Multi-CPU support
[20:37:19] Rogue - Device-Independet display system. Basically something like Cairo, OpenGL-accelereated, with all the visual gadgetry like rotatable windows, transparency and the like...
[20:38:12] Rogue Basically improve on what we have now.
[20:38:16] EntilZha - Everything that's not yet in OS4.0
[20:38:21] Rogue Yup :)
20:38:25] Rogue (good answer)
[20:38:52] Rogue *coughs* next :)
[20:38:55] _Steve_
[tons]: Will hardware/software that requires proper Zorro and Classic Amiga Video support, such as the Video Toaster and Video Toaster Flyer system, work properly with OS4?
[20:39:18] EntilZha Yes, provided the drivers are written correctly.
[20:39:45] EntilZha There's nothing that prevents you from accessing the Zorro bus, or the video hardware... however, the drivers must work with the emulation.
[20:39:58] EntilZha next
[20:40:09] Mikey_C-A1 okay
[20:40:13] Mikey_C-A1 Finally to finish
[20:40:20] Mikey_C-A1 can you comment on: Pegasos 2 port
[20:40:29] Mikey_C-A1 and OS4 on PDA?
[20:40:30] Mikey_C-A1 ;)
[20:40:34] Rogue Aye! No comment :)
[20:40:38] Rogue Erm... okay...
[20:40:51] Rogue Pegasos 2 is a potential hardware platform for OS 4.
[20:41:11] Rogue There is an initial "cost" involved for a port, in fact, for any port of OS 4 to a different hardware platform.
[20:41:44] Rogue On some occasions (like the hardware platforms mentioned in our introduction) we'Re working on that with the hardware manufacturer.
[20:42:03] Rogue For the Pegasos 2, we would need to do that ourselves. We're currently not ready to do that.
[20:42:16] Rogue That is the reason why there is no OS4 on the peg yet.
[20:42:21] Rogue PDA:
[20:42:34] Rogue Yes AmigaOS4 *does* run on an existing PDA.
[20:42:50] Mikey_C-A1 what make? and can we have it now? ;)
[20:42:55] EntilZha Yeah, Workbench booting on a 240x320 display: A sight to see
[20:43:02] DaveyD lol
[20:43:13] DaveyD if Windows can do it ;)
[20:43:30] EntilZha I can not dsclose that without killing 519 people, sorry
[20:43:37] Mikey_C-A1 okay :)
[20:43:42] Mikey_C-A1 Finally in closing then,
[20:43:59] DaveyD everyone stick around for the after-party
[20:44:12] Mikey_C-A1 I would like to thank you guys on behalf of everyone on Amigaworld for taking the time to answer all the questions
[20:44:15] EntilZha after-party ? Can we get drunk ?
[20:44:22] Outcast on Coke ?
[20:44:24] Coder Drinks are on DaveyD
[20:44:33] DaveyD EntilZha your belgain, of course
[20:44:35] EntilZha Depends on what you mix into the Coke
[20:44:35] Mikey_C-A1 To round of Rogue EntilZha any thoughts on OS4.1 and beyond?
[20:44:43] Outcast true
[20:44:51] * EntilZha remembers being drunk on Coke+Cognac
[20:45:01] * DaveyD locks the door
[20:45:05] Mikey_C-A1 To round of Rogue EntilZha any thoughts on OS4.1 and beyond?
[20:45:44] EntilZha Hmm... thoughts...
[20:46:03] EntilZha Well, we do have our plans, but it all depends of course on the present, i.e. sales of OS4
[20:46:27] EntilZha Some of the plans we already gave a glimpse on, some others are not disclosed yet
[20:46:35] * DaveyD opens the room in a moment
[20:46:39] Mikey_C-A1 okay, well on that note, guys thank you for your time
[20:46:41] Mikey_C-A1 :)
[20:46:51] DaveyD now drink up
[20:46:54] Outcast Round of applause
[20:46:55] EntilZha You're welcome. Thanks all for listening